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Meissen
Dei Praesidio doesn't seem to explicitly set out what exactly "protection" entails. I would assume the intention is for crusader lords to be temporarily immune to wars being declared against them by other lords within the empire. But what happens if they are already in a war when the protection is declared? Should a white peace be forced, or would the war be made to stall, with no further conflict allowed until the protection expires? And does this not open the way for defending lords to exploit this law to buy themselves some time if they are losing? After all, even if they make no attempt to participate in the Crusade, they still get that one year, yes?
Brandenburg
Would it cover protection from rebels?
Because I would be all down for the Crusade shit, but considering I an holy warring this land that literally just got released by a Pagan Revolt
I would like to avoid that happening to me whilst I am out killing Muslims
Meissen
I don't see how it's mechanically possible for anyone to be protected against rebellions happening.
Brandenburg
I don't mean actually stop them from happening
I mean help me quash them whilst I am crusading
Meissen
But I don't think there's any way for the Emperor to get directly involved with that.
Brandenburg
You can attack Rebel stacks
Meissen
Can they? You can probably tell I haven't played this game outside the LP in a while
Lower Lorraine
This is hard for me to get behind. Giving people who go on a Crusade such protection eliminates the very real gamble it would have been.
Brandenburg
The lord forbid we can trust our Catholic brothers to not stab us in the back whilst we defend christiandom (edited)
Lower Lorraine
That's kind of my point. If we trust them, why enshrine this in law?
Brandenburg
Not everyone has the same religious fervour
Lower Lorraine
Sure. But someone deciding to swoop in and attack you while you're crusading is an interesting conflict, and this law would negate that.
I wouldn't be upset if it did pass or anything, but I guess I've settled well into the role of naysayer.
Meissen
Well, the extent to how much it negates it is unclear right now - as I said the "protection" is never explicitly defined.
Provence
I'm definitely listening and can attempt to make clarifications and adjustments where necessary
An ammendment can be made to clarify that anyone requesting protection must be at peace with all other christians.
Meissen
Yes, I think that would solve some issues
Bavaria
you could also add a provision for penalties for violation
Provence
Yes
Bavaria
reading it now, theoretically the Emperor doesn't actually have to punish offenders
Could play favorites that way if they so desired
Provence
What sort of penalties would be fair? The emperor and neighboring countries can join in the case of revolt easily enough there are mechanics in place for that.
Bavaria
yeah, but let's say I declared war on a Crusading neighbour
can anyone other than allies intervene?
revocation of single counties has been used before, though it might be a bit strong
other than that, I suppose, could be fines to the Emperor or loss of offices
Meissen
The imperial Sanction is a possibility
Bavaria
whatever you settle on, I'll be voting for it with the other discussed changes, so I'll leave that open
Provence
No they can't and that's where i need to be creative
Bavaria
Also the Sanction, yes
Provence
What does sanctioning do?
Bavaria
I'm going to let Meissen handle that, I'm off to bed
but I like where this proposal is going
Meissen
It's buried in one of Tricky's posts, but here is the definition:
Sanction: If a particular individual has acted dishonorably, one can request the Emperor bestow sanction upon them. So long as their house bears Sanction, they cannot be appointed to the council, granted an honorary title, or granted a new landed title. It is on the sanctioned house to demonstrate to the Emperor they are deserving of being released from this sanction.
Provence
Hmm
Meissen
Of course that definition is just an Imperial Edict and not any actual article of law, but if you say Sanction in a law I think we can assume that is what is meant
Provence
Another area where I will clarify is that while the emperor should defend a lord's holdings in the case of open rebellion, that does not give a lord carte blanche to revoke titles and rack up tyranny points
I'll do a rewrite after more opinions come in
Meissen
I'm also a bit iffy on some of Advocatus Sancti Sepulchri - the bit about allowing Electors to grant themselves Kingdoms. Personally I think creation of Kingdoms should be left outside the scope of this proposal and be decided separately when it is relevant. Also, Act 2 Section 1 says that Electors may demand an election to distribute titles - how? Is a majority vote required to call such an election?
Austria
As a note: not all rebellions are hostile to other vassals. Case in point: if a Duke is crusading and a count vassal launches a rebellion, those rebels are not hostile to anyone not in that war
Provence
Thats true but I believe it's still possible to join in that war without having blood relations
For example this happened to me
Bohemia
Hm.
Provence
and I was assisted by my neighbors
who requested to join my war
but we had no alliances
Bohemia
My personal feeling is that any kingdom titles gained in a crusade should either be given to the Emperor or to a family member of the crusader with the highest WS, but that's just my opinion.
Dauphiné
Agreed to the latter point
Or at least the viceroyalty
Meissen
Actually, I've just realised I may have misinterpreted the part on Kingdoms - when you say people can "grant themselves Kingdoms", is that meant to include creating them or only apply to already extant titles?
Bohemia
It doesn't seem right to have Jerusalem as a Viceroyalty.
Provence
Any why is that?
and
Bohemia
The crusade is for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, not the Viceroyalty of it.
Viceroyalties are different from Kingdoms according to Imperial law.
Provence
If the emperor doesn't have the largest contribution to the crusade, lets say bavaria does, or tuscany, then they can create the kingdom of jerusalem of they wish.
that was ti weimar
to
Austria
Hmm... Section 1 of Act 2 of the Seplchre law contradicts itself. If it is the Kaiser's right to distribute lands from conquest, why do we have a say in it?
Dauphiné
Because the emperor is 24 dukes in a trenchcoat (edited)
Provence
Because gameplay wise he literally would have the right to distribute the kingdoms
Bohemia
But that's giving a whole lot of power to a single duke who presumably already has the forces to outnumber every other crusading elector. (edited)
Meissen
I dunno about just allowing something like that, assigning Kingdoms seems a rather big matter to just legislate away in advance.
Provence
and titles
Austria
I have a feeling that if we win, the KoJ will have a crisis just like Aquitaine did
Meissen
I mean, we have no idea how the Crusade is likely to actually happen or be organised
Saxony
Whoever wins the crusades will get the Kingdom title automatically, though, right?
Provence
Yes
exactly
Meissen
And honestly I think leaving it to a crisis is OK if it happens like that, at least we'll have all the facts when we decide that way
Bohemia
Every duchy in Jerusalem should be given to a family member from each crusader's family, with the kingdom title being given to a family member of the highest scorer.
Austria
So we essentially have the same choice: viceroyalty, destroy the title and distribute the lands, or elective kingdom (but with no players, kinda hard)
Dauphiné
Being a player in Jerusalem seems like it could be fun, at least if it wasn't for the Seljuks
Provence
But if say, bavaria were to have the highest warscore, they would just get the kingdom, and so it would not be an imperial crisis.
Austria
True, but does that mean some of hte current players will switch duchies/primary titles?
Lower Lorraine
I'd like to make it an independent state, with maybe us having various baronies there, and we have to try to sheperd the AI if we want them to stay around.
Austria
*that was to Dauphine
Meissen
Provence: It might not be an official crisis but it sure seems like it'd cause a lot of consternation among the Electors
Bohemia
Again though, just granting an entire Kingdom to a single elector?
Provence
Exactly which is why I'm trying to come up with solutions to these problems before they happen instead of after.
Austria
I have a feeling that if any one elector got a kingdom title, Tricky will probably spring a crisis on us, given how little we can agree on even the idea of it
Bohemia
That's waaaay too much power to one guy, who again, is presumably more powerful than every other crusading elector.
Dauphiné
If we do it like in vanilla, then they're going to get a kingdom title automatically and they won't be able to give it away, as you can't give away your highest-ranking title
So we're gonna have to do some modding
Maybe nick something from CK2+ or HIP
Austria
Let's be honest though, 90% chance the Salians lead the charge to Jerusalem, and HRE wins the crusade and max warscore
Saxony
How about this: if you win, you can be king of Jerusalem, but you have to abdicate your elector title.
Austria
So I think the greater question is what do we do with the land afterwards?
Dauphiné
He'll probably just be using his personal levies, so it's not set in stone
Provence
Yes, I think that is taken for granted, but I wanted a contingency in the case that didn't happen
Dauphiné
Does the Emperor himself have much more levies than any vassal?
personal levies, that is
Austria
Fair enough, and I think Saxony might have a good idea: what about any KoJ is released as independent?
That's kind of what happened historically
Dauphiné
Then it's gonna be dead before the week is over
Saxony
I think we should control it until it's "stabilized," that is, until both conquest maluses are gone. (edited)
Austria
Again, same issues as they had historically. I'll bet the KoJ wouldn't have failed if they had strong dynastic alliances with major kingdoms in the west to prop them up
Bohemia
Kingdom of Jerusalem should be under the Holy Roman Empire in name only at least. It doesn't make sense that the emperor would just let it go.
Provence
You have to remember bohemia that anyone who actually acquires jerusalem would have to spend great amounts of money and men defending it
So yes it would give them power
Austria
Instead, KoJ was flying solo until long after they were dead, then 2nd crusade happened
Provence
but the responsibility is immense
Bohemia
In the short term, yeah, but after the penalties for taking land that you got in a crusade are gone?
Austria
I have to side with Bohemia here, having the KoJ outweighs the costs
Bohemia
that's at LEAST 10,000 men in a single guy's army, very likely more.
Austria
Especially since right now the muslims are divided (at least 4 years prior, still can't get the last save to open)
Dauphiné
Just checked, there are four dukes who have more manpower than the emperor
Saxony
And he'll have the Templars and Hospitallers to fight Muslims.
Meissen
I'm honestly surprised to be saying this on a subject related to Kingdoms, but I'm with Bohemia on this one.
Dauphiné
Tuscany, Bavaria, Carinthia, and Bohemia
Bohemia
I'm going to viciously oppose any attempt to give it to a single guy. I don't oppose kingdoms in the empire, but holy fuck I do oppose giving someone that much of power for contributing 2.5% more warscore to the crusaders victory than anyone else. (edited)
Austria
Agreed
Dauphiné
It definitely shouldn't be directly given to a player
Austria
Let the crusade be for the right reasons, not for personal glory at the detriment of those who fought at your side
Provence
assuming we are going with existing gameplay mechanics, there is literally nothing you could do about it.
Dauphiné
Same family as a player? Yes.
Austria
We should share the risks and rewards together
Provence
I agree austria
That's the entire point of laying out these provisions from the get go
Austria
No, let's be honest. Give a title to a family member, they're gonna be the elected heir and the current ruler commits suicde
Saxony
Maybe a King of Jerusalem should have certain restrictions put on him: no warring with Christians, on pain of revocation, being number 1.
Bohemia
Like I said; give a single duchy to a family member of each crusading member, give the county and kingdom of Jerusalem to the highest scorer. (edited)
Provence
My alternative was that any man who wishes to be king of jerusalem must abdicate all other titles within the empire.
Saxony
Agreed.
Provence
I've said that before, but that met with a lot of resistance
I mean a lot
Bohemia
No one is going to take that option.
Saxony
We could also just give it all to bishops.
Dauphiné
Maybe we could do it so that a member of the winner's dynasty can get it, and on rehost the player will get the choice between staying as their current character or becoming that other dynasty member instead.
Provence
But lets be honest, we all want at least a city in the holy land
Meissen
Creating Theocracies is probably something we want to avoid from a mechanistic point of view
Provence
A city, or a castle
Something
Bohemia
It'd only be a good idea if you were a several county duke, and if you do that much land you aren't going to get the warscore to win.
Austria
If the title of KoJ is not a viceroyalty, I would say the best way to avoid conflict in the HRE over it is to release it as its own state. To avoid interim risks, let it be a non-voting member of hte HRE until they stabilize (20 years or whatever on the "new admin" penalty) then grant independence
Otherwise we are all going to fight over who is king there
Dauphiné
So we're practically guaranteeing that it won't stick around
Provence
I think its perfectly fine for us to fight over who will be king there
we fight over who will be emperor
and it hasn't erupted in bloodshed yet
Austria
I don't recall any debates on this scale over the coming election
Provence
So long as the fighting remains political
It's all been done in back rooms
but there has been plenty of fighitng
fighting
every other day I have someone trying to convert me or threatening me or giving me promises
over the election
Bohemia
We could give out the land to dukes, but we'd have to chop it up into smaller domains.
Austria
Hmm... what are y'alls thoughts on taking the Langobard approach from Aquitaine? No KoJ, and we divy up the titles to those who contributed (so Bohemia's idea minus the KoJ title being handed out)
Provence
I think there must be a united kingdom of jerusalem
Bohemia
So instead of just one Kingdom of Jerusalem, there is also an independent Antioch or Tyre sitting around/
Austria
That way, it rewards those who contribute, but removes the risk of internal dissention over the KoJ title, and its still imperial territory
Saxony
Antioch is still Byzantine.
Dauphiné
I kinda like the idea of there being a king of Jerusalem, though
Jerusalem is special
It shouldn't just be another region of the empire
Bohemia
United Kingdom of Jerusalem brings up some very serious problems though.
Dauphiné
Well, that's what makes it fun
Austria
Except I can't think of a way to make one that doesn't run into the same problem as before: a king ruins the HRE system of equals with the emperor a first among equals
Provence
Yes and then everyone can fight each-other over lands in the holy land piece-meal like idiots
Bohemia
There should be a Kingdom of Jerusalem, but uniting it under one guy is idiotic.
Saxony
Plus, I can't rp, say, Bohemia owning some prime slice of Jerusalemite real estate and effectively controlling it.
Provence
It must be a united kingdom of jerusalem ruled and administered in the name of the lord God and the Empire.
Austria
That's actually a historic issue, so no qualms there
English-french/scottish land holders
Bohemia
I still support just slicing it up between the various crusaders.
Kingdom and county goes to the highest scorer.
Dauphiné
Agreed
Austria
Does the king have any rights over the others, or is it ceremonial? i.e. would the KoJ have no vassals except his own county vassals
Provence
How is that any different from what I proposed? Kingdom goes to the highest scorer?
Saxony
He gets two Holy Order vassals.
Austria
So say Duke of Gallille (who might also be duke of Dauphine or whatever) is still in imperial immediacy?
Bohemia
You'd also run into the historical tidbit of Jerusalem's nobility being more culturally diverse than a politically correct children's cartoon show.
Austria
If I properly interpreted Bohemia's idea, I have to side with him on this
I can stomach a ceremonial KoJ title that has no rights above other dukes
Provence
I am not sure what Bohemia's idea is.
Please explain it.
Bohemia
Cut up the holy land between various dukes, titular King of Jerusalem in Jerusalem.
Austria
Duchies are divided among those who contribute, and the king title and Jerusalem itself goes to the highest contributor
Dauphiné
titular king of Jerusalem?
Austria
No one is a vassal of the KoJ
Titular in essenence I guess
Bohemia
Vassal in name only.
Saxony
Running Jerusalem should be really difficult for us, though, unless we commit to going there and actually being crusader kings. We can divy up the land, but I think it should go to unlanded
relatives of the contributors.
Austria
Since mechanics-wise its still a full kingdom title, but I would say have all de jure members of KoJ be in imperial immediacy
Bohemia
Obviously the Kingdom is elective, and you could probably do some stuff with the current king having some cool buffs or something
but the KoJ doesn't really own much outside of Jerusalem.
Austria
I think the prestiege boost is enough
Plus more demense size
Bohemia
Also, interesting question
Austria
also not being restricted to elective to avoid gavelkind splits
Lower Lorraine
I don't see why the KoJ necessarily has
to be elective.
Bohemia
If an independent realm gets elected to a throne, and then loses it to another independent realm, does that realm become a vassal of the new ruler?
Dauphiné
Unrelated, but apparently I'm the fifth richest guy in the world
Saxony
good, you can buy boats
Dauphiné
Richest guy is some random muslim count
Austria
I'm not really sure Bohemia, rarely see independent realms get elected to another title
Bohemia
worth experimenting with I think
Dauphiné
Followed by the Duke of Carinthia, the adventurer invading France, and Botstain Ironside
Austria
Keep in mind Saxony, if you're referring to merc boats, they are expensive and transport very little
10 boats for 100 gold, 9 gold/mon
Bohemia
It'd be required for the idea to work
Dauphiné
Botstain Ironside is the Prince Mayor of Gotland, if you were wondering
Austria
I'm imagining Boatstain Ironside
Lower Lorraine
What? It's 75 boats, isn't it?
Austria
Unless its a DLC that's not active on my comp, I see only 10
and only 3 merc companies
Dauphiné
Botstain Ironside Steinkyrka
Austria
So I was planning on a long hike
Dauphiné
There are 4 merchant companies with ships
Austria
I figured those with their own boats with attack from the coast while landlubbers like me would attack from Anatolia
Dauphiné
They all have 10 ships each
We need to mod in more naval mercenary companies
I think
Austria
Well, its not a huge deal to walk
Just hope the Byzantines don't explode into peasant revolts
Saxony
It really should be. We should take relations penalties for this, at least.
Bohemia
unfortunately, I think any family member I put in Jerusalem would need to modded to be a cadet branch
Austria
Why? We're going to smash up the Byz's regional threats. That's why they like the crusades in history (well, the ones not targeted at them)
Bohemia
otherwise it runs the risk of the dude inheriting my own duchy
seniority and all that
Austria
Yeah, and I think there's going to be the temptation to make it so that someone inherits to reconsolidate it
in general with most people
Saxony
Byz is wayyy more powerful than it was in actual history. They could probably see themselves taking Jerusalem in the near future.
Austria
True, they didn't lose at Manzikert, but they've been having a lot more civil wars of late, plus they have more interest in Croatia it seems
So having the latins die killing muslims might appeal to them
Bohemia
Byzantium is always this powerful in CK2
I said if CK2 were a person, he'd be a greek nationalist
Dauphiné
???
Saxony
nope, an abbasid-karling
Bohemia
fuck
I meant ck2
Austria
Yeah, I rarely see Byzantium fall apart in CK2, whereas in CK1 they died most of the time
Saxony
everything died in ck1